Under discussion: How Leinster came back from the dead to win the most epic of Heineken Cup finals.
Chatting were: Julian Bennetts, Alan Good, Peter Jackson, Tony Leen, Donal Lenihan, Simon Lewis.
TONY LEEN, Irish Examiner sports editor: There's a lot to get through in this final Heineken Cup debate of the season, after an astonishing Saturday in Cardiff. So Donal, as Robert de Niro said to Billy Crystal, analyse that...
DONAL LENIHAN, Irish Examiner rugby columnist: An incredible performance by Leinster in the second half, and an incredible day really. When the pressure was at it greatest, Leinster performed and proved conclusively they are worthy champions.
TONY LEEN: Of course Leinster merit all the plaudits they're getting, but difficult to escape the fact that Northampton blew the biggest opportunity in their history. They'll take some time to get over this one.
ALAN GOOD, Irish Examiner rugby writer: Does anyone buy into the theory that Saints knew they didn't have a bench to match Leinster's - or the match fitness after a longer season - so they went hell for leather in the hope of building up a big enough lead to survive the late onslaught?
JULIAN BENNETTS, English-based rugby writer: Many say that it's most difficult to accept defeat when you simply don't turn up for a final, but to be outstanding for 40 minutes and then lose - the mental scars will be there for years to come. Saints simply ran out of gas. Their starting line-up is very good but their squad isn't - once the momentum went against them, Jim Mallinder simply didn't have the options to turn it around.
TONY LEEN: Looking around the field, Leinster evidently had leaders all over the place. Looking at it coldly, was that an issue for Saints when the game was going away from them? Nobody to kill Leinster momentum, to turn the tide back again? Maybe that is of relevance to Donal Lenihan's previous point about Stephen Myler, that he's solid (and kicked well), but is he going to grab a game by the scruff of the neck for you?
SIMON LEWIS, Irish Examiner rugby correspondent: I'm not sure any team could have stopped Leinster in that second half, or that Northampton did anything particularly badly. The truth is that it's very difficult to play rugby when you haven't got the ball, and Leinster gave them no hint of an opportunity to hang on their lead. By the time they had regrouped they were dead on their feet from all that tackling! It really was an overpowering and overwhelming performance from Joe Schmidt's team. As to where they go from now, they have already begun strengthening their squad, because a lack of strength in depth was a real problem for them all season. Shane Geraghty has gone to Brive and in comes Ryan Lamb from London Irish as a fly-half option, and there are more on the way.
DONAL LENIHAN: Let's get one thing right from the start. It is wrong to suggest Northampton lost because they were tired. With a 16-point lead you should be buzzing at the start of the second half. Leinster blew them away in the opening 16 minutes of the second half. That was not down to tiredness, and does a disservice to Leinster.
TONY LEEN: I'm no expert on the scrum, but please explain to me how you can be steamrolled in the first period to an embarrassing degree, and turn the tables completely after half time? You're telling me that's all down to momentum? I thought the scrum was about power and technique?
DONAL LENIHAN: Ye, you're right. The Saints had six scrums in the opening 30 minutes and got a maximum return out of them. Without getting too technical, Northampton have a technique where they push up and through. Once Leinster got them to stay down and scrummage parallel to the touchline, they were OK. Saints' front row is excellent and needs a lot of managing. Leinster reacted in the heat of battle and made the technical adjustments required. Again, a sign of a good team.
JULIAN BENNETTS: Mallinder does recognise the problem, and Saints will be better next season. The English answer is that it is very difficult to afford to have lots of leaders in your team with a salary cap. It may be a tired argument, but Leicester and Saints desperately want rid of the salary cap so they can afford the very best, rather than relying on bringing through youngsters - even if youngsters such as Courtney Lawes would get in any side. Having said that, I don't think lack of leadership was the problem - Leinster were a whirlwind, almost demonic in the second-half. Not many sides would have been able to handle doing quite so much tackling and then prospered as an attacking force, and Saints couldn't.
SIMON LEWIS: I think the difference, and you've alluded to it with Donal's point about Myler, is that Leinster had game changers by the hatful and Northampton didn't. There was no one in that Saints dressing room at half time to ram home that advantage or to stage a fightback once Leinster had got back on level terms. Leinster had those sort of players from Strauss through to Nacewa.
TONY LEEN: Most basic rule of protecting a lead...don't concede early in the second period. I'm just saying Saints opened the door to the Leinster whirlwind - they didn't even have to blow it down.
DONAL LENIHAN: The bottom line is that Northampton have six top quality players and a lot of club standard players in a league that is over-rated anyway. Wait until you see the bosh-fest that will mark the Aviva Premiership final next Saurday.
SIMON LEWIS: Leinster were also brilliant at the restarts from the off, Shane Horgan in particular, and once they remembered how to keep the ball there was no stopping them.
JULIAN BENNETTS: There is some truth in that, Donal, although you may have dealt them a slight disservice. Certainly, Leinster had the edge at half-back, the centres and, after the interval, the back row. Having said that, I thought Roger Wilson was far better than Heaslip for an hour. And I doubt James Downey did his Ireland cause a huge amount of harm on Saturday.
DONAL LENIHAN: I was very impressed with Wilson too. He is a great footballer and a skilful player. The bottom line though is that if you want to win trophies in the modern physical game, you need a very strong quad. Northampton asked too much of a small band of players and the load needs to be shared.
TONY LEEN: Always dangerous I know to talk about dynasties and dominance, but what reasons are there for indicating that Leinster will NOT be the European powerhouse for years to come? The age profile is right, and all the big players are tied down to contract. I guess the first thing to do is continue building the squad from a position of dominance?
DONAL LENIHAN: Leinster are in a very strong position now. Capital city, massive following that is only going to get bigger, and a production line of good schools players who will all now have a dream of playing for Leinster first...Ireland become a consideration after that, but right now, playing for Leinster is the dream of countless thousands of kids.
ALAN GOOD: The nature of Heineken Cup history suggests it is exceptionally difficult for one team to dominate year-in, year-out, even Toulouse haven't managed it. There are very few weaknesses for Leinster but only time will tell whether Steven Sykes or Damien Browne can replace Hines, who will be a tremendous loss. However, they will rightly begin as strong favourites next year.
PETER JACKSON, rugby writer: Where does this put Leinster on the all-time list of European finals? I'd say numero uno.
SIMON LEWIS: I'm not sure it was the greatest final in as much as it wasn't a cliffhanger, but that second-half performance has to be right up there as one the best. Leinster do seem set fair for an extended period of dominance with the players coming through, the players such as Rob Kearney to come back and the new guys such as Sean Cronin and Jamie O'Hagan coming in. Fergus McFadden has done nothing wrong this season when given the opportunity for his province and country and he can be a talisman of the future while the coaching staff deserve huge credit for the mindset they've instilled.
JULIAN BENNETTS: Looking from the outside, what Leinster have are a series of Irish talismen that kids can look up to and want to emulate. First it was O'Driscoll, now Heaslip and Sexton. That is incredibly important when building a club. When you add quality imports such as Nacewa, who I love watching, you realise why they will rightly start as favourites next year.
TONY LEEN: A pertinent question: for how much longer can Brian O'Driscoll's banged up body continue to take the pummelling he subjects himself to week in week out?
SIMON LEWIS: Do they even need a fully fit O'Driscoll?! He was like Tiger Woods at Torrey Pines the way he helped spark that comeback after half-time.
DONAL LENIHAN: O'Driscoll was struggling badly in the opening half and in the circumsTances worked miracles in the opening 20 minutes of the second. I would be very surprised if he plays on Saturday, and it is incredible that his body has even got him this far. His brain, however, is streets ahead of all the others and hat could see him go for two more seasons. After that I would be surprised, but what a player...
ALAN GOOD: Maybe not right now, but down the line you can certainly see him being one of the best impact substitution options that ever was for Leinster. But he's by no means finished yet, they will just have to start using him more sparingly.
PETER JACKSON: Brian has never made any secret of the fact that his last great ambition is another Lions tour, Australia 2013. You wouldn't bet against him making it.
JULIAN BENNETTS: It appeared to be sheer force of character than got O'Driscoll through the second-half in such style. Of course, he actually had the ball - something he didn't really have bar when he was hauled down by Foden in the first-half - but if you want mental toughness, he is your man. Based on that alone the possibility of him making the Lions in 2013 is fairly strong, I would say.
ALAN GOOD: Speaking of future Lions, what did ye make of Courtney Lawes?
DONAL LENIHAN: Very impressed by him this season. He is very athletic and a bit of an assassin in the tackle. He still has a long way to go but has all the ingredients to make it, big time. I think the Lions in two years time will just be perfect timing for him.
JULIAN BENNETTS: I didn't think he had his best game, actually. One crunching first-half hit aside he didn't pulverise the opposition in the loose as much as normal, and his lost, confused face in the last 10 minutes summed up the fact that he can't quite yet dominate a side or verbally inspire his own. Having said that, if he isn't a starter for the Lions in 2013 I will eat a 6ft 7in, Courtney Lawes shaped hat.
ALAN GOOD: How about the Leinster boys? Who would make a Lions Test side in 2013 on current form?
PETER JACKSON: Several and I wouldn't be surprised if Richardt Strauss is among them. The South African qualifies for Ireland next year and on current form he'd be a shoo-in for the trip.
DONAL LENIHAN: Too early to say but Sexton looks a shoo-in at this stage, which is great news for Ireland. O'Brien, Heaslip, Healy are all in a good place too. A lot will happen in two years though, and on the basis of what I saw with England U20's, this season they have a few good ones on the way.
JULIAN BENNETTS: Strauss is certainly good enough. Sexton will get the nod over Flood at fly-half I imagine. Heaslip and O'Brien would be in there. Then O'Driscoll, if fit, while Fitzgerald and Hines could have their supporters. Healy could well have a good shot too. England do have some good ones on the way. I know we briefly touched on the Aviva Premiership final next weekend, but keep an eye on Saracens' Owen Farrell. At 19 he has the talent and the attitude to be a threat to Sexton by 2013.
PETER JACKSON: Hines will be 38 by then. Pick a Lions team now and two factors would leap out -- a lot of Irish and very few Welsh, deserved on both counts.
ALAN GOOD: Speaking of O'Brien, where is his best position? He seemed to thrive once he was moved to the blindside to biff some Saints (albeit as part of tide turning Leinster's way).
SIMON LEWIS: Never mind the Lions, has Shane Jennings done enough to convince Declan Kidney he should play a more prominent part in the World Cup this autumn? I thought he was outstanding coming on after half time.
DONAL LENIHAN: Spot on. Jennings deserves serious consideration for the World Cup. I have made the point before that O'Brien's game is stifled at number seven. Jennings should be seen as the back up to David Wallace.
JULIAN BENNETTS: Jennings proved on Saturday that he can make the difference as a replacement in a game of the highest magnitude. For that reason I'm surprised he doesn't have more international caps. O'Brien - well, he may be slightly stifled at 7, but you would play him on the wing just so he was in your team.
ALAN GOOD: Can we look past O'Brien for European player of the year?
DONAL LENIHAN: O'Brien for me...followed by Nacewa and Tonga'uhia.
PETER JACKSON: My European player of the year - Jamie Heaslip. This time last year we were all raving about Kieran Read being out on his own as the world's best number eight. Well, not any longer. Heaslip has been a colossus in a colossal Leinster team and he will be at his peak for the next two-three years.
SIMON LEWIS: Sexton - brilliant in semi and final, with O'Brien and Nacewa a close tie for second.
JULIAN BENNETTS: O'Brien, just, although after 40 minutes on Saturday Tonga'uiha would have been my choice. Heaslip, Sexton and Nacewa all been superb, though. Foden has also had a wonderful tournament.
ALAN GOOD: Before we move onto the Magners final, a question about the two protagonists. Peter and Julian, at the height of their powers, is the double Heineken Cup winning side of Munster or Leinster a better outfit?
PETER JACKSON: A seriously tough question. As a team for all seasons, I think Leinster shade it. They have dominated this tournament in a way no other champion has done. Look at the teams they've had to beat - Clermont, Saracens, Racing, Leicester, Toulouse, Northampton. No easy-beats there. Brilliant.
JULIAN BENNETTS: I would say that Leinster have slightly more fantasy about them, in the shape of Sexton, O'Driscoll, Heaslip etc. And their path to the final in this year's tournament was outrageously tough, as Peter has mentioned. However, I couldn't see that Munster team going into half-time 22-6 down. But Leinster edge it, just.
ALAN GOOD: And to the Munster supporters you have presumably just offended... Can they hold out any hope for the Magners final? Home turf, an axe to grind, battered opponents whose heads might not be all there? Or will it be Leinster's day again?
PETER JACKSON: I've never offended a Munster supporter in my life - and I'm not going to start now! They'll be fired up like hell for the Grand Final and it wouldn't surprise me if they win it. I will be there.
JULIAN BENNETTS: I wouldn't be surprised to see Munster take it, actually. Emotionally, Saturday must have taken so much out of Leinster's players and it will be very tough to recover from that. Munster will be incredibly motivated, and home turf could just sway it.
Source: http://feeds.examiner.ie/~r/iesportsblog/~3/AjizSR1JU8M/post.aspx
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